The Iliad by Homer. Search, Read, Study, Discuss.

Immortal Gods in the Iliad

And let Apollo drive Prince Hector back to battle, breathe power back in his lungs, make him forget the pains that rack his heart. Let him whip the Achaeans in headlong panic rout and roll them back once more, Tumbling back on the oar-swept ships of Peleus’ son Achilles. And he, he will launch his comrade Patroclus into action and glorious Hector will cut him down with a spear in front of Troy, once Patroclus has slaughtered whole battalions of strong young fighting men and among them all, my shining son Sarpedon. But then – enraged for Patroclus – brilliant Achilles will bring Prince Hector down. And then, from that day on, I’ll turn the tide of war: back the fighting goes, no stopping it, ever, all the way till Achaean armies seize the beetling heights of Troy through Athena’s grand design. But till that hour I will never cease my anger. Nor will I permit a single immortal god to save the Argive forces, not till Achilles’ prayer has been fulfilled. So I vowed at first. I bowed my head in assent that day the goddess Thetis clutched my knees, begging me to exalt Achilles scourge of cities. Fate, it seems, is predetermined by a force that far surpasses the control of mortals and immortals alike. Throughout the epic poem, The Iliad, Homer repeatedly shows us that fate , not gods, is the determinant of life’s outcome. Fate is the true sovereign in The Iliad, and the gods, as human in certain aspects as humans themselves, are the mere executors of fate. The immortals that inhabit Mount Olympus are chosen as upholders of the laws of fate, but there are plenty of occasions where the gods defy the same laws they espouse. Absolute power can corrupt absolutely; with the tremendous amount of power bestowed in them, gods are often faced with the temptation to break the rules- a temptation which a number of gods end up indulging in. In some cases, the gods let their emotions affect the divine judgment. Factions are created among the gods, as each of them have different reasons and motives for supporting and defying fate for their preferred nation. As powerful as the gods are, they are still limited by the inevitable truth of fate. Fate provides a general guideline by which the gods are supposed to use their powers to set things in motion. It is evident that even almighty Zeus is not a master of fate but the enforcer. He uses his golden scales of fate to determine what the fated outcome for this battle is and the Achaean side plummets. Acting upon what fate had determined should be the outcome, Zeus cast a shower of lightning over the Achaeans and the Trojans chased them all the way back to their ships. (8.81-90) Hector and Achilles met on the battlefield and Zeus again measured their fate, Hector’s side fell and he was slain by Achilles. (22.248-254) Zeus is responsible for upholding the laws of fate and to ensure that they are uncompromised and are executed according to what it had already predetermined. Paris attempted to resolve the conflict between the nations by challenging Menelaus to a duel, the winner would take away Helen and be awarded reparations, however when Paris failed miserably, Aphrodite rescued him and brought him back to his bed. Since Paris was missing in action, Agamemnon declared victory over the Trojans. The conflicts would have all been resolved once Menelaus was awarded reparations and his wife was returned, however this would jeopardize the fated downfall of Troy. Zeus responded to this by sending Athena to provoke Pandaros to attack Menelaus, to set setting the war back on the right track and moving along.(4.80-84) Zeus responded by sending Athena to encourage Pandaros to attack Menelaus, setting the war back on the right track. (4.80-84) Achilles, blinded by his rage, killed many Trojan soldiers and disposed of their bodies in the river Scamander. The river god counterattacked by nearly drowning the hero. He was not fated to die in this way, so when Achilles called out to the gods for help, Hephaestus came and burned the river god into submission. (21.308-336/405-409) Achilles headed back towards Troy once he found out he had been tricked by Apollo. Hector had originally planned to reason and come to a compromise with Achilles, but he later realized that this was not an option and fled in fear. (22.111-164) Achilles had already chased Hector around Troy three times when Athena decided to intervene. Athena told Achilles of her plan to fool Hector. She took the form of Deiphobus to con Hector into staying to battle Achilles, who would soon kill him. (22.257.267) As much as the gods want to help their favorite heroes and nations, sometimes they are helpless to defy fate. Apollo, who dearly loved Hector, withdrew from helping him because he knew that it had been fated for Hector to go down to the house of Hades.(22.248-254) Zeus, a devoted enforcer of the law, and he strictly punishes those who try to flout fate. He had previously punished Hera by having her strung in midair, slinging two massive anvils down from her feet. (15.23-31) He had also reprimanded Sleep for tampering with the fate of Hercules by hurling him deep into the sea. (14.290-318) These punishments had set a very strong precedent for those who sought to supersede fate and, even though Hera and Athena could not resist helping the Achaeans when they were at a disadvantage, they restrained themselves as they knew that punishment by Zeus would be eminent if they ignored the power of fate. (8.476-496) Throughout the entire poem there are many instances in which gods are presented with a choice between following the laws which they enforce or breaking them to fulfill some personal agenda or motive. Zeus, despite the immense amount of power he possesses, is also the god with the most integrity as he restrains himself from tampering with end result of fate. This is clearly shown in the tale of his son Sarpedon, who was about to meet his imminent death at the hands of Patroclus. Zeus considered changing the course of fate by rescuing his beloved son, but decided not to after being reminded by Hera that he is the upholder of fate (16.426-461) Conversely, many gods do not recognize the significance of fate to the same extent that Zeus does. Apollo was responsible for plaguing many of the Achaeans and overlooking fate as he knew that this would prove that he was powerful and would bring him more worshipers offering more sacrifices. (1.565-566) The human nature of gods in The Iliad is evident from their susceptibility to act out their emotions. Aphrodite, the coward goddess, rescued Paris when he failed miserably in his battle against Menelaus- a battle which was supposed to resolve the war. (3.428-441)/ (3.135-136) The two parties agreed that the winner would get possession of Helen and war reparations.(2.104-114) Chryses, a priest of Apollo who begged Agamemnon for the right to give a large ransom for his daughter to be returned to him, prayed to Apollo, who was furious when he was denied that right. Apollo punished the Achaeans severely by inflicting their army with a plague. (1.50-60) Calchus had correctly identified that this was the work of Apollo, and it is not until they appeased the god that they became plague-free. Thetis plays a significant role in this aspect of the poem. After the initial argument Achilles had with Agamemnon, he felt like he wasn’t being treated with the respect he deserved for the many battles he had won for the Achaeans and that his honor and status were being challenged by Agamemnon. Achilles told his mother about their argument and the indignation he felt for this injustice. He told his mother that she can assist him by reminding Zeus that he was indebted to her for saving his life, and persuade him to help Achilles. Zeus and the other gods were feasting with the Ethiopians, and will be back in twelve days. Upon their arrival to Mount Olympus, she would try to win him over. Zeus himself had been guilty of letting his emotions get the best of him. He felt a sense of indebtedness to Thetis who had previously saved him, and thus reluctantly accepted her request to aid her son. (1.619-635) He did just as he promised and punished the Achaeans, causing them to suffer many casualties and setbacks so that they would beg Achilles to come back , restoring his honor and sense of significance. Achilles eventually did return to battle and killed Hector, and afterwards tied Hector’s feet to the back of his chariot and defiled his body. Apollo pleaded to the other gods that Hector was not destined to be forever defiled by Achilles and deserved a proper burial. He proposed that they steal the body of the Trojan prince and return it to King Priam. (24.37-65) Zeus would not allow the situation to be resolved this way.(24.88-90) Instead he decided that he would send Thetis to tell Achilles that he had to give the body back.(24.137-146) He then sent Iris to tell Priam to get a large ransom ready and to go alone to Achilles’ camp. Here he could exchange the ransom for his son’s body and Hermes would be his escort. (24.171-191) As a result of much civil unrest, the gods had created factions among them. The Achaeans had the blessing of gods Athena, Hera, Poseidon, and Hephaestus; the Trojans were supported by Apollo, Ares, and Aphrodite. Gods who were of the Trojan faction rescued Aeneas and gave strength to Hector. Those who belonged in the Greek faction gave Diomedes strength. Diomedes, wounded by Pandaros, prayed to Athena and she answered the prayer by bestowing him with super strength to use to defeat many Trojans. (5.133-147) Diomedes, having been enhanced by Athena, had an aristeia and fought so well that the Trojans recognized him as one of the best of the Achaeans. Among the Trojans that battled Diomedes was Aeneas, who was Aphrodite’s son. Aphrodite could not help but want to protect her beloved son, only to get wounded by Diomedes and consequently allow Apollo to take over the task of safeguarding Aeneas. (5.347-395) Diomedes even tried to attack Apollo, violating the agreement he had with Athena. (5.495-508) Ares then proceeded to fight alongside Hector to slaughter many Achaeans. Athena, with permission from Zeus, came down to fight alongside Diomedes, and the clash of the titans resulted in Ares getting wounded. It was during this battle that god’s involvement in the battlefield peaked. Patroclus had exceeded the expectations of the gods and defeated every opponent he came in contact with. Glaucus prayed to Apollo to heal his wounds and help the Trojans in battle, and Apollo answered his prayer and healed him. (16.605-622) Apollo then wounded Patroclus, weakening him, allowing a Trojan soldier to wound him before Hector gave him the finishing blow. Hera was so determined to help the Achaeans that she was willing to sacrifice her own head for them. She did whatever it took to divert Zeus’ attention from the battle. She tricked Aphrodite into lending her precious girdle to her, and bribed Sleep to send Zeus into a deep slumber; as a result, Poseidon was given a window of opportunity to lead the Achaeans into victory. Achilles, in his blind rage, mowed down rows of Trojans, and sent them retreating back to the walls of Troy. Apollo ensured their successful retreat by distracting Achilles until the Trojans were all within the safety of their walled city. It is evident that the gods of The Iliad play an important role, but only as enforcers of the laws of fate, and not as controllers of it. However, since they are unchallenged in power, they occasionally forget their status in relation to fate and act upon their own personal interests. All the gods involved in the factions are motivated by different agendas to support the their favored nation thus dividing them and causing civil unrest. This kind of interpretations of gods creates a foil for the perfection associated with supposedly god-like behavior. Any suggestions for this essay would be very much appreciated. If you know any other examples or citations that would strengthen this essay please help as well. Also let me know if the essay fulfills all the necessary criteria provided below and if not please help me correct this. Thank you very much. Iliad Assignment Objective: - to show an awareness of Homer’s compositional style Task: Select a passage 1 sentence – 2 paragraphs. Write a 2000 word essay about the passage. Criteria: Must include: - Relevance of the passage to the Book and the Poem overall - What gives this passage particular interest - Features which suggest oral composition - Whether the formulae are used meaningfully - Where else are the formulae occur in the poem - Other thematic resonances - Why Homer chooses to include these details Special Instructions: - Indicate the passage selected and the translation you will be referring to in the beginning of your paper. - Provide a bibliography - Make precise references to page and line numbers whenever possible - Learn from any writing mistakes made in the first assignment - Paperclip this essay to the previous Odyssey assignment Due Date: - To be handed in by November 10th at 12PM. No late assignments will be accepted.

Posted By kayj at Sat 8 Nov 2008, 10:51 PM in The Iliad || 0 Replies

HELP PROOFREAD: Immortal Gods in the Iliad

And let Apollo drive Prince Hector back to battle, breathe power back in his lungs, make him forget the pains that rack his heart. Let him whip the Achaeans in headlong panic rout and roll them back once more, Tumbling back on the oar-swept ships of Peleus’ son Achilles. And he, he will launch his comrade Patroclus into action and glorious Hector will cut him down with a spear in front of Troy, once Patroclus has slaughtered whole battalions of strong young fighting men and among them all, my shining son Sarpedon. But then – enraged for Patroclus – brilliant Achilles will bring Prince Hector down. And then, from that day on, I’ll turn the tide of war: back the fighting goes, no stopping it, ever, all the way till Achaean armies seize the beetling heights of Troy through Athena’s grand design. But till that hour I will never cease my anger. Nor will I permit a single immortal god to save the Argive forces, not till Achilles’ prayer has been fulfilled. So I vowed at first. I bowed my head in assent that day the goddess Thetis clutched my knees, begging me to exalt Achilles scourge of cities. Fate, it seems, is predetermined by a force that far surpasses the control of mortals and immortals alike. Throughout the epic poem, The Iliad, Homer repeatedly shows us that fate , not gods, is the determinant of life’s outcome. Fate is the true sovereign in The Iliad, and the gods, as human in certain aspects as humans themselves, are the mere executors of fate. The immortals that inhabit Mount Olympus are chosen as upholders of the laws of fate, but there are plenty of occasions where the gods defy the same laws they espouse. Absolute power can corrupt absolutely; with the tremendous amount of power bestowed in them, gods are often faced with the temptation to break the rules- a temptation which a number of gods end up indulging in. In some cases, the gods let their emotions affect the divine judgment. Factions are created among the gods, as each of them have different reasons and motives for supporting and defying fate for their preferred nation. As powerful as the gods are, they are still limited by the inevitable truth of fate. Fate provides a general guideline by which the gods are supposed to use their powers to set things in motion. It is evident that even almighty Zeus is not a master of fate but the enforcer. He uses his golden scales of fate to determine what the fated outcome for this battle is and the Achaean side plummets. Acting upon what fate had determined should be the outcome, Zeus cast a shower of lightning over the Achaeans and the Trojans chased them all the way back to their ships. (8.81-90) Hector and Achilles met on the battlefield and Zeus again measured their fate, Hector’s side fell and he was slain by Achilles. (22.248-254) Zeus is responsible for upholding the laws of fate and to ensure that they are uncompromised and are executed according to what it had already predetermined. Paris attempted to resolve the conflict between the nations by challenging Menelaus to a duel, the winner would take away Helen and be awarded reparations, however when Paris failed miserably, Aphrodite rescued him and brought him back to his bed. Since Paris was missing in action, Agamemnon declared victory over the Trojans. The conflicts would have all been resolved once Menelaus was awarded reparations and his wife was returned, however this would jeopardize the fated downfall of Troy. Zeus responded to this by sending Athena to provoke Pandaros to attack Menelaus, to set setting the war back on the right track and moving along.(4.80-84) Zeus responded by sending Athena to encourage Pandaros to attack Menelaus, setting the war back on the right track. (4.80-84) Achilles, blinded by his rage, killed many Trojan soldiers and disposed of their bodies in the river Scamander. The river god counterattacked by nearly drowning the hero. He was not fated to die in this way, so when Achilles called out to the gods for help, Hephaestus came and burned the river god into submission. (21.308-336/405-409) Achilles headed back towards Troy once he found out he had been tricked by Apollo. Hector had originally planned to reason and come to a compromise with Achilles, but he later realized that this was not an option and fled in fear. (22.111-164) Achilles had already chased Hector around Troy three times when Athena decided to intervene. Athena told Achilles of her plan to fool Hector. She took the form of Deiphobus to con Hector into staying to battle Achilles, who would soon kill him. (22.257.267) As much as the gods want to help their favorite heroes and nations, sometimes they are helpless to defy fate. Apollo, who dearly loved Hector, withdrew from helping him because he knew that it had been fated for Hector to go down to the house of Hades.(22.248-254) Zeus, a devoted enforcer of the law, and he strictly punishes those who try to flout fate. He had previously punished Hera by having her strung in midair, slinging two massive anvils down from her feet. (15.23-31) He had also reprimanded Sleep for tampering with the fate of Hercules by hurling him deep into the sea. (14.290-318) These punishments had set a very strong precedent for those who sought to supersede fate and, even though Hera and Athena could not resist helping the Achaeans when they were at a disadvantage, they restrained themselves as they knew that punishment by Zeus would be eminent if they ignored the power of fate. (8.476-496) Throughout the entire poem there are many instances in which gods are presented with a choice between following the laws which they enforce or breaking them to fulfill some personal agenda or motive. Zeus, despite the immense amount of power he possesses, is also the god with the most integrity as he restrains himself from tampering with end result of fate. This is clearly shown in the tale of his son Sarpedon, who was about to meet his imminent death at the hands of Patroclus. Zeus considered changing the course of fate by rescuing his beloved son, but decided not to after being reminded by Hera that he is the upholder of fate (16.426-461) Conversely, many gods do not recognize the significance of fate to the same extent that Zeus does. Apollo was responsible for plaguing many of the Achaeans and overlooking fate as he knew that this would prove that he was powerful and would bring him more worshipers offering more sacrifices. (1.565-566) The human nature of gods in The Iliad is evident from their susceptibility to act out their emotions. Aphrodite, the coward goddess, rescued Paris when he failed miserably in his battle against Menelaus- a battle which was supposed to resolve the war. (3.428-441)/ (3.135-136) The two parties agreed that the winner would get possession of Helen and war reparations.(2.104-114) Chryses, a priest of Apollo who begged Agamemnon for the right to give a large ransom for his daughter to be returned to him, prayed to Apollo, who was furious when he was denied that right. Apollo punished the Achaeans severely by inflicting their army with a plague. (1.50-60) Calchus had correctly identified that this was the work of Apollo, and it is not until they appeased the god that they became plague-free. Thetis plays a significant role in this aspect of the poem. After the initial argument Achilles had with Agamemnon, he felt like he wasn’t being treated with the respect he deserved for the many battles he had won for the Achaeans and that his honor and status were being challenged by Agamemnon. Achilles told his mother about their argument and the indignation he felt for this injustice. He told his mother that she can assist him by reminding Zeus that he was indebted to her for saving his life, and persuade him to help Achilles. Zeus and the other gods were feasting with the Ethiopians, and will be back in twelve days. Upon their arrival to Mount Olympus, she would try to win him over. Zeus himself had been guilty of letting his emotions get the best of him. He felt a sense of indebtedness to Thetis who had previously saved him, and thus reluctantly accepted her request to aid her son. (1.619-635) He did just as he promised and punished the Achaeans, causing them to suffer many casualties and setbacks so that they would beg Achilles to come back , restoring his honor and sense of significance. Achilles eventually did return to battle and killed Hector, and afterwards tied Hector’s feet to the back of his chariot and defiled his body. Apollo pleaded to the other gods that Hector was not destined to be forever defiled by Achilles and deserved a proper burial. He proposed that they steal the body of the Trojan prince and return it to King Priam. (24.37-65) Zeus would not allow the situation to be resolved this way.(24.88-90) Instead he decided that he would send Thetis to tell Achilles that he had to give the body back.(24.137-146) He then sent Iris to tell Priam to get a large ransom ready and to go alone to Achilles’ camp. Here he could exchange the ransom for his son’s body and Hermes would be his escort. (24.171-191) As a result of much civil unrest, the gods had created factions among them. The Achaeans had the blessing of gods Athena, Hera, Poseidon, and Hephaestus; the Trojans were supported by Apollo, Ares, and Aphrodite. Gods who were of the Trojan faction rescued Aeneas and gave strength to Hector. Those who belonged in the Greek faction gave Diomedes strength. Diomedes, wounded by Pandaros, prayed to Athena and she answered the prayer by bestowing him with super strength to use to defeat many Trojans. (5.133-147) Diomedes, having been enhanced by Athena, had an aristeia and fought so well that the Trojans recognized him as one of the best of the Achaeans. Among the Trojans that battled Diomedes was Aeneas, who was Aphrodite’s son. Aphrodite could not help but want to protect her beloved son, only to get wounded by Diomedes and consequently allow Apollo to take over the task of safeguarding Aeneas. (5.347-395) Diomedes even tried to attack Apollo, violating the agreement he had with Athena. (5.495-508) Ares then proceeded to fight alongside Hector to slaughter many Achaeans. Athena, with permission from Zeus, came down to fight alongside Diomedes, and the clash of the titans resulted in Ares getting wounded. It was during this battle that god’s involvement in the battlefield peaked. Patroclus had exceeded the expectations of the gods and defeated every opponent he came in contact with. Glaucus prayed to Apollo to heal his wounds and help the Trojans in battle, and Apollo answered his prayer and healed him. (16.605-622) Apollo then wounded Patroclus, weakening him, allowing a Trojan soldier to wound him before Hector gave him the finishing blow. Hera was so determined to help the Achaeans that she was willing to sacrifice her own head for them. She did whatever it took to divert Zeus’ attention from the battle. She tricked Aphrodite into lending her precious girdle to her, and bribed Sleep to send Zeus into a deep slumber; as a result, Poseidon was given a window of opportunity to lead the Achaeans into victory. Achilles, in his blind rage, mowed down rows of Trojans, and sent them retreating back to the walls of Troy. Apollo ensured their successful retreat by distracting Achilles until the Trojans were all within the safety of their walled city. It is evident that the gods of The Iliad play an important role, but only as enforcers of the laws of fate, and not as controllers of it. However, since they are unchallenged in power, they occasionally forget their status in relation to fate and act upon their own personal interests. All the gods involved in the factions are motivated by different agendas to support the their favored nation thus dividing them and causing civil unrest. This kind of interpretations of gods creates a foil for the perfection associated with supposedly god-like behavior. Any suggestions for this essay would be very much appreciated. If you know any other examples or citations that would strengthen this essay please help as well. Also let me know if the essay fulfills all the necessary criteria provided below and if not please help me correct this. Thank you very much. Iliad Assignment Objective: - to show an awareness of Homer’s compositional style Task: Select a passage 1 sentence – 2 paragraphs. Write a 2000 word essay about the passage. Criteria: Must include: - Relevance of the passage to the Book and the Poem overall - What gives this passage particular interest - Features which suggest oral composition - Whether the formulae are used meaningfully - Where else are the formulae occur in the poem - Other thematic resonances - Why Homer chooses to include these details Special Instructions: - Indicate the passage selected and the translation you will be referring to in the beginning of your paper. - Provide a bibliography - Make precise references to page and line numbers whenever possible - Learn from any writing mistakes made in the first assignment - Paperclip this essay to the previous Odyssey assignment Due Date: - To be handed in by November 10th at 12PM. No late assignments will be accepted.

Posted By kayj at Sat 8 Nov 2008, 9:21 PM in The Iliad || 0 Replies

A Profound Look Into The Iliad

I would like some feedback on the thesis I wrote for the following passage. Cattle and fat sheep can all be had for the raiding, tripods all for the trading, and tawny-headed stallions. But a man's life breath cannot come back again— no raiders in force, no trading brings it back, once it slips through a man’s clenched teeth. Mother tells me, the immortal goddess Thetis with her glistening feet, that two fates bear me on to the day of death. If I hold out here and I lay siege to Troy, my journey home is gone, but my glory never dies. If I voyage back to the fatherland I love, my pride, my glory dies… It is a widely accepted idea that we hold little if any power in the shaping of our destinies; our destinies are predetermined by divine forces such as the will of a god or goddess. In Homer's The Iliad, most mortals are given but a single route in their fated path, some mortals, such as Achilles, are given directions to a road that diverges and is allowed to choose his own path. Homer provides us with information of how the poem is to end, and gives many hints along the way because the importance of the outcome comes second to the reaction of the characters that also share knowledge of what is to come. Knowledge of how you will meet your doom could be quite devastating but despite this fact, many characters in the epic do not wait for time to come, but see it as an opportunity to achieve immortality in history and fight courageously in the battlefield for something they believe in. Although, ultimately, Achilles decides to rejoin the frontlines of the battle and slaughter many Trojan soldiers without mercy, he often contemplates which decision is the right one for him; to live a long life of little meaning by returning home to Phthia, or to continue fighting for his country alongside his comrades who depend on him and be remembered eternally as a man of glory. Courage is not the absence of fear, but the presence of fear yet the will to go on. After the death of Patroclus, death is no longer a concern to Achilles, he has accepted his fate and is willing to die an untimely death so that he can honor his fallen comrade and win glory for himself. Another parallel to Achilles character and his decision to act despite knowing it would cause his own death, is Hector, who knows that if he steps onto the battlefield he will eventually die in battle and Troy, leaderless, will fall. They will be forever remembered as heroes who acted courageously in the face of death, thus making this war, much more than just an imperial conquest. It is evident that the Trojan War is but a location for the heroes to prove themselves in the making of history since Homer deliberately begins the poem nine years into the war and days before the conclusion of it.

Posted By kayj at Tue 4 Nov 2008, 4:22 AM in The Iliad || 6 Replies

Question about The Iliad

What is the significance of the number 9 in The Iliad?

Posted By jackson at Sat 30 Aug 2008, 10:06 PM in The Iliad || 0 Replies

Help!

I have to write an essay on why the Iliad and the Odyssey are still so popular today, and why they are such classics, I am having a hard time finding a site to help! :thumbs_up

Posted By Kcatt4 at Mon 25 Aug 2008, 6:32 PM in The Iliad || 1 Reply

How should I imagine the gods?

This isn't a very deep question, but I can't find much of an answer to it anywhere... For example, as Appollo strides down from Olympus in Book I, unleashing arrows of plague upon the Argives, should I actually imagine a figure kneeling there, shooting arrows? Or is it strictly metaphorical? Do the gods look just like humans in stature, in flesh, or are they larger than life and/or a transluscent apparition? Do all men see them, or only certain ones? It's obvious in some cases that a god is specifically only seen by one man, but many cases are ambiguous, as when Aphrodite sweeps Paris away from his duel with Menelaus. I suspect the only answer is "however you wish to interpret it." But is there any kind of scholarly consensus about it in modern times or ancient?

Posted By marvin.whence at Sun 13 Jul 2008, 2:53 AM in The Iliad || 2 Replies

Favorite Translation?

What is your favorite translation of the Iliad / Odyssey? ...It's hard to beat Alexander Pope's rhyming couplets for iambic pentametric perfection (if you will), but he's not the only one out there. Thoughts?

Posted By Literary_Cat at Mon 27 Aug 2007, 7:06 PM in The Iliad || 3 Replies

Hesitation of Achilles

This came up in another thread, and I thought I'd make it the subject of a new thread. Hopefully other lit-net members will join in because I'm pretty sure Klaus Peter is tired of hearing from me! One problem I´m trying to solve at this moment is when Achilles wants to kill Agamemnon, but "his heart was divided in counsel, whether he should draw his sharp sword from his side and break up the assembly and kill Agamemnon, or whether he should check his wrath and curb his spirit". Achilles is not the dubious, undecided Hamlet type, but a rather impetuous warrior. Why the sudden doubts? What is the message the author is trying to convey? What is your opinion? Please leave the gods are out of the problem. The quote is from Book 1, around line 190 of the Iliad. Even though Klaus Peter has stated his preference for leaving the gods out of the problem, I think the gods are an important enough part of the Iliad that it should be fair game to talk about them. Here are some of my thoughts to start things off: I think this episode is consistent with Achilles' character. We see other examples of him backing off of intentions formed in excessive anger in Book 9 and in Book 24. In Book 9, he angrily makes up his mind to leave for home the next morning in response to Odysseus' speech, but that determination is relaxed first, after the speech of Phoenix, to deciding the next morning whether or not to leave, and finally, after the remarks of Ajax, to staying put but refraining from fighting until his own ships are threatened. In Book 24, Achilles relents and allows Priam to ransom the body of Hector, even though he originally meant to disgrace Hector's corpse by exposing it to scavengers. I think the remarkable thing isn't that Achilles hesitated, but rather that he was so bold and so angry as to seriously consider murdering Agamemnon. Achilles' angry and vague threat that Agamemnon will be sorry was enough to provoke Nestor to chastise him (Achilles) for not giving Agamemnon his due respect. In fact, I can't think of any instance in the Iliad of a Greek warrior killing another Greek warrior. As for the author's purpose, besides providing a heightened moment of tension and highlighting the magnitude of the offense that Achilles felt, it gives a glimpse of a part of Achilles' character which, as I said, will manifest itself in crucial ways later in the poem. This part of Achilles' behavior can even be seen as the Iliad in a nutshell: the Greeks come close to destruction because of the wrath of Achilles, but this wrath is quenched and the Greeks escape destruction.

Posted By bluevictim at Fri 3 Aug 2007, 4:09 PM in The Iliad || 1 Reply

Iliad Survey.

Hello, everyone. I am creating a survey about the question of heroism in The Iliad. Basically, I want to know about your opinions on the warriors of The Iliad - heroic or lucky? For example, we hear all about the talented archers and strong warriors but when the gods are against them they don't appear so talented or strong; in fact, they appear dead. If you want more information I will attach the rough draft of my essay in order to clarify my idea. Also, tell me why you chose your answer. Thank you in advance. -- Essay More Gods, More Problems Now and probably since the birth of religion, people have struggled with the thoughts of supernatural existence, divine presence, and similar ideas pertaining to their faith. Those who choose not to believe often base their decision off of a lack of empirical evidence or divinely-inspired symbols; on the other side, those who do believe can only put their faith into mere beliefs. However, imagine a world where those mere beliefs are true beliefs, not only because the gods abundantly show signs to their people, but they also have the ability to control every aspect of these peoples’ lives if they so pleased. From great events in history to trivial matters, and even including the precise details of one’s own life, the gods are in control. Such is the world of the inaptly titled heroes of The Odyssey and The Iliad, those men who are played like chess pieces and strung like puppets. Besides the limited free-will of humans, it’s evident that the gods are in control of the world. The funeral games of Patroclus show how the gods intervene in even the minutest of matters, favoring those who chose to respect them rather than those who possess true, innate ability. Also, the Trojan War illustrates how the gods can shape and mold history; Athena deceived Pandarus, one of innate ability and good choice, in order to revive the battle she sought. Lastly, the man of Odysseus, one devoid of choice and the ability or means to save himself, appears as a hero by the will of an admiring goddess. Humans may have a choice or say in such events, but the final say is always that of the gods. As previously stated, the funeral games show that one who prays well will conquer one that plays well. Funeral games are contests where humans test their skills against another in order to win rewards; however, it develops into a contest between who can kiss up the most to the powerful gods. The first example is shown during the chariot race, when Apollo caused Diomedes to drop his whip, giving Eumelus the lead. Athena, being angered at this, causes Eumelus’ chariot to break, throwing Eumelus into the dirt and granting victory to Diomedes. Shortly after the chariot race, the three runners: Odysseus, Ajax, and Antilochus took their marks. Ajax was the clear favorite of the people, but not of the goddess Athena. Subsequently, Ajax was tripped and lost to Athena’s precious Odysseus. Lastly, the great archer, Teucer, met the archery challenge against Meriones. Once again, the favorite of the men was not the favorite of the god. Teucer, the best archer in the army missed the target by Apollo’s bidding, angered due to Teucer’s forgetfulness of praying to him and offering him glorious sacrifices. On the contrary, Meriones promised Apollo a wealth of sacrifices, ensuring that his arrow would strike the target. It seems that even a man’s innate ability falls short to the will of the gods. In addition to the small matters of the world, the gods shape and mold the history of the world as well. A well-reinforced example of this is Athena’s deception during the 9th year of the Trojan War. The goddess Athena, who championed the Argives, would not remain a spectator while her favored men were whipped like a chariot team. In order to provoke the Argives and stir within them a rage that could match even Achilles’, Athena devised her deceptive ploy. Transforming to that of a Trojan spearman, Athena sought the expert archer of Lycoan, Pandarus. Arousing the ambitious archer with thoughts of fame, glory, and honor, his hand moved towards the bowstrings; his aim was fixed on Menelaus. However, even with good choice—following the counsel of a goddess—and innate ability—expert archery skills—Pandarus could not hit his mark. Athena deceived poor Pandarus and swept away his arrow along with his dreams and aspirations. The enraged Argives took up arms and the war was revived; this revival ultimately led to Pandarus’ death at the hands of Diomedes. Innate ability and good choice were not enough to save poor Pandarus from the will of the gods. Aside from the events of the world, the gods can control something even more important—your life. It is indeed true that Odysseus was a man of tactful thinking and honed combat skills; however, he was also a man of great fortune. The goddess Athena had favored him; subsequently, many blessings and similar benefits had come his way. As previously mentioned, Odysseus, at one point in his journey, became a man devoid of choice and the ability to save himself, contrarily to Pandarus. Ironically, as he frantically clung onto a wooden plank in the middle of the sea during a raging storm, Odysseus had no need to worry because his watcher Athena sought to rescue him. Not only did she drag Odysseus by the strings to the safety of the beach, but also she made him appear as a hero among men to Princess Nausicaa, thus ensuring him the means to finally journey homewards. Odysseus was raised in height, the build of his body firmed, and his face and body became shining. Even in times when one lacks ability and choice, a god’s favor can still make one a hero With such a god-influenced world it is hard to imagine that the humans are in control. As stated before, the gods decide the events of the world and how they unfold. Instead of the gods being the spectators, the humans are the ones watching while the gods play their game of life. They can not fight it and they can not escape it, they can only suffer it. Rather than calling one “swift runner” or “brilliant,” it may be wiser to just call them lucky or god-favored.

Posted By Jer at Tue 24 Apr 2007, 6:08 PM in The Iliad || 10 Replies

Pope's Translations Outshines the Genius of Homer?

I am not a speaker of Greek. So I have not read the original Iliad and Odyssey, But I have been reading several translations of Iliad and Odyssey, along with the poems of Lord Alfred Tennyson (Ulysses, Idylls of the King, Lotus Eaters). But we should bear in minds that the age when Homer comes out with his work (We should also consider that at those times, Epics, were meant to be sung, remembered and passed down orally, not only in Greece, but in many cultures and Civilizations, eg. Norse, Indian, etc.) and the Age when Pope and Tennyson writes their works, there is huge gap in terms of the civilizatoin development. One can roughly say that Homer's Iliad and Odyssey comes at the Dawn of the Civilization Day and Pope and Tennyson's works come in the Afternoon of the same day. So comparing and making statements like Pope or Tennyson Outshines Homer, does not make sense. Each is truely a genius and a master poet and epic maker in his own way. But what remains same with Homer or Pope or Tennyson or Maestros is that their works are ever the same, everwhere, anywhere, at any time, and at all times (till doomsday or eternity).

Posted By Outis at Sat 16 Dec 2006, 2:19 AM in The Iliad || 1 Reply

The Iliad

Quizzes on The Iliad

Recent Forum Posts on The Iliad